Episode 821: What It’s REALLY Like to Publish a Cookbook With Jessica Holmes

EBT 821 – What It’s REALLY Like to Publish a Cookbook

Megan Porta (00:01.017)
Jessica, welcome back. It’s been so long. How have you been?

Jessica (00:05.95)
Hi, I’m good. Thank you for having me. I think it’s been four years and what a massive four years it’s been.

Megan Porta (00:13.283)
I know, it’s so crazy how long it’s been. I remember last time I talked to you I don’t always remember these details, so this is kinda weird, but I remember we were talking about Instagram, correct? Okay. And I remember you talking about a giant cookie. That’s all that’s in my head. A giant does that ring a bell?

Jessica (00:23.5)
Yes, that’s right.

Jessica (00:29.462)
I don’t remember that. No, I don’t remember that, but that sounds accurate. Sounds like something I would talk about.

Megan Porta (00:34.863)
That’s funny. I just have this like image of you with a giant cookie. I have no idea, but it must have been part of our conversation. So go listen to that one from four years ago and see what we can learn from that. But today you’re gonna talk about your experience publishing a cookbook with a traditional publisher. We’re so excited to hear that story and all the tips you have for us. But why don’t you start by telling us just a little bit about you and your business?

Jessica (01:01.282)
Yeah, so for those who don’t know me, I am a food blogger. I started my food blog Sweetest Menu in 2014. So I think I’m considered an internet grandma now. But I only went full time with it in 2020, so I was working full time as a copywriter on the side. And then yeah, so for the last six years I’ve officially been a food blogger and recipe writer, I guess. And then I got the cookbook deal at the end of 2024. And my cookbook has just come out a couple of months ago here in Australia. So now I’m an author as well, which is really exciting.

Megan Porta (01:37.315)
Yeah. That is so exciting. Congratulations. It is a big deal. So I hope that you’re like just lavish lavish lavishing yourself with love and all the appreciation because it is no joke, right? Like it is so great to have it done and in your hands, but it is a process and there’s a lot of work involved.

Jessica (01:56.17)
It is big, yes.

Jessica (02:02.24)
It’s a massive project and I think too as a blogger you’re very much used to things going live. You know, you write a blog post in a few days or you do social media, but then you’re working on this project for you know, a good 18 months, so it’s a very different way of working. Which was nice. It was nice to do something different, but yeah, it’s big, it feels big.

Megan Porta (02:12.259)
Yeah.

Megan Porta (02:25.561)
Yeah, it is big. So give yourself a pat on the back. So yeah, so how did this come into your lap, I guess? How did it fall into your lap in the first place?

Jessica (02:28.652)
Thank you.

Jessica (02:33.322)
Yes. Yes. Yeah. So for this book, I was actually really lucky. I got an email that just slid into my email box from a publisher who said they were interested. So we met up for coffee and then we had a few meetings after that and basically they were just trying to suss out what book I wanted to create, what book they wanted to create, and if our sort of dream books aligned and then if they yeah if they felt I was a good fit for them. But then there’s a whole process so there’s still no guarantee from there. But we kind of both wanted to create this book that we did create which was like easy baking and I was really happy with my editor. She seemed to really understand me and my business and what my blog is all about. But then she has to go and pitch that to their sales team and their marketing team and leadership team.

And I guess they do all this maths on how many books they think they can sell and if they can make a profit and whatnot. And it’s sort of, yeah, this whole behind the scenes process that we don’t necessarily see. And yeah, and then they come back with like a formal offer. So I was really lucky that obviously mine went ahead, but it was not always that easy. So I had I did have, I think it was way back in 2017, an offer from

A different publisher in America, but I remember getting their emails and we went back and forth for a while, but they really wanted me to create their book rather than creating the book that I wanted to create, if that makes sense. so I ended up turning down that offer, but that was really hard because I remember at the time like saying to my husband, if we turn this down, like I might never get another offer. So it could be like their book or nothing.

And then we chose nothing. So that was really hard, but we sort of went, No, I really want like the book that you know I had in my mind that I wanted to create. and then a few years after that, it was actually after COVID, I think in 2020 and 2021, I actually met an agent and I did up a book proposal and I did the whole formal thing. and she went around to I think six or seven publishers and they all said no.

Jessica (04:57.11)
Yeah, so that was quite sad at the time. yeah, it was really hard. And the thing I think to remember and that I learnt through the process is, I mean it’s very easy to just say it, but you can’t always take it personally because even when some of the publishers would come, they would say, We’ve already got a baking book lined up. So they line things up quite far in advance and it could just be as simple as we’re going to publish one baking book this year.

Megan Porta (05:00.119)
We’ll be fine with all its own.

Jessica (05:27.296)
And we’ve already got that book sorted. So it’s not like necessarily like, no, we don’t want to publish with you. Yes, yes. It could just be that you’re not it’s the r it all comes down to I think the right person at the right time, really. but anyway, so that was quite hard and I still had it, you know, in my heart that was really something I wanted to do, but I just had to leave it for a while and I just went and focused on the blog and focused.

Megan Porta (05:31.745)
Right. No personal offense to you, right? Yeah.

Jessica (05:57.272)
And that actually was good. So then it was another few years before this offer came through, but it helped me. I feel like in those few years I probably changed a little bit and really focused on what my blog was all about. And I really went in on like easy baking because then I had two kids. So then it kind of changed things a little bit. And yeah, I feel like I was more I did more creative and whimsical and a little bit more elaborate. And then I just went in on, you know what, like

I’ve got kids parties, I’ve got kids running under my feet, you know, all the mums I talk to, like they just want an easy cupcake recipe that works, you know. and that and and so that ended up being like my brand probably refocused a little bit, and then that’s ended up being like the catalyst for the blog. And obviously when this offer came through, it just perfectly aligned and yeah, I said yes, and they said yes.

Megan Porta (06:36.195)
Yeah. that’s amazing. That’s such a good story and it’s such a good reminder for us to just hang in there when we think that things should work a certain way and they’re not working a certain way. There’s usually a reason. Like this book just feels like it’s so perfectly aligned for you and where you’re at now in your life. So I think that’s good for all of us to think through, whether it’s a book or another project or your blog making it onto an ad network or whatever. Like the right time is the right time and just

Jessica (07:23.533)
You it’s so true. Sometimes you really do just have to hang in there. Like there was and even yeah, back when we went round and all the publishers said no, like there was nothing else I could do. Like I there was no more publishers to really go to. So we just had to wait. And that’s okay too. Yeah.

Megan Porta (07:38.445)
Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I love that story. Thank you for sharing it. So it was published recently in Australia. So how recently? Is it like fresh, fresh? How new is this?

Jessica (07:49.089)
Yes. Yeah, it’s very fresh. It was June thirty that it came out, so it’s been out for about two and two months, two or three months. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Megan Porta (07:55.224)
Wow, yes. Okay. That’s so cool. And I know in a little bit we’ll talk about because you did a book tour and you were able to like meet some of your followers and all of that, which is super cool. But how has it been as far as an actual income stream? Have you noticed a difference with that?

Jessica (08:15.711)
Yes, so this is an interesting one. So for people that may not be aware, the cookbook world works differently. So with a traditional publisher, what they typically do is they give you an advance. So that’s a fairly large sum of money and it’ll range depending on who you are, obviously, and how many books they think you can sell. And obviously, if you’re a very famous person, you will get a very big

advanced because maybe you’ll have multiple publishers fighting over you. But if you’re a first-time author like me, the advance will be, you know, fairly modest. but then they typically will cover most of the costs for the book. So my publisher you know covered the shoot. Like we went and did a shoot two week shoot and they obviously they covered like chefs, they covered all the ingredients, they covered

the photographer and then they cover obviously like the design and the making of the actual book. So they cover a lot of costs and you have your advance, but then you have to it’s your time basically of writing the book. That’s sort of covered by you. For me, I also got my recipes tested by an external recipe tester. Her name was Janine and she was amazing. But that was my choice to get

them like kind of double tested. so I had to pay for that. So I paid for that out of my advance. So there’s a few little costs along the way on depending on how you want to use your advance. And then what happens is once your book goes on sale you would have agreed to a percentage which is usually around 10% of the recommended retail price, which is quite small. So if your book was $20 you earn $2.

But you usually have to pay back your advance. So that means, you know, I don’t want to go into the math because I’ll probably do it wrong. But yeah, you have to sell, you know, a few thousand books to be the equivalent of whatever your advance is. So you don’t technically pay it back, but just means you don’t get any money for those first sales. And then once you cross over, then you will start to earn your royalties. But you only get paid it.

I don’t know if it’s the same in America, but in Australia you only get it paid, I think, twice a year. So they do like a big, yeah, payout. Yeah. So it’s very strange compared to, you know, once you’re a blogger and you just you get a you have a daily income and then you have a monthly, you know, check that, you know, well not check, but you know, cash that lands in your bank account. so it’s quite delayed. So it is it is something I feel like it’s a long term investment.

Megan Porta (10:40.847)
Yeah, I think it’s something similar to that. Yeah.

Jessica (11:05.027)
Because if your book can sell for a long period of time, you will have money coming in. And the question I think is the different strategy. So I know some people who they don’t want to rely on the sales. So they will ask for the biggest advances possible because that goes straight to you. So you have that cash, they can’t take that from you, you know, that’s yours. Whereas other people go along the strategy of having quite a small advance.

Megan Porta (11:28.036)
Yeah.

Jessica (11:33.581)
So that as soon as you know they’ve sold a few books, they’ll start earning royalties. And you can get your agent to see if they can bump up that percentage that you earn from each book if you have an agent. I didn’t do that and didn’t know to do that. So that was a bit of advice I got from some other authors later who said you probably could have negotiated for a higher percentage per book. But also it’s a little bit, I feel like your first book is like this trial and error and if it goes well, it sort of gives you this negotiating point for your next book deal as well, because then you can kind of, you know, you have this starting point. It’s very hard as a new author, I think, because you just you just don’t know. You don’t know how many books you’re going to sell and you don’t you don’t really know the process so well.

So it’s good if you have anyone around you who has done one to have a chat to them before you like sign anything, see if you can milk any more money out of your publishers. But yeah. So for me, so for me, I obviously got my advance and I’m only just I’m just about to like earn start to earn royalties. So yeah, does that make sense? Yes.

Megan Porta (12:48.715)
That’s amazing. That yes, that feels that feel that sounds great and it feels really good to probably get to that point too. And I think it is the same over here where you have to wait months and then you’re like, Okay, how am I doing? Because you really don’t know how your book is doing, right? Like you need to wait for the updates.

Jessica (13:03.995)
No. Yes. Yes. And that’s the other thing that’s really surprised me is that there’s like it’s all behind the scenes. So like you don’t even like pi and people say, mine’s a bestseller and blah blah blah. But you don’t actually, you there’s no and because we’re bloggers, you know, a lot of your numbers are out in public, but these numbers are all hidden. And so your publisher should send you regular updates, but you often have to ask for them.

Megan Porta (13:14.308)
Yeah.

Jessica (13:33.511)
and they should get them every week, like updated sales numbers, but depends if you want them every week. I think some people don’t care, some people want regular updates, so yeah, it can get a bit anxiety inducing, I feel, if you get too many updates like too often. So you my publisher just updates me every like maybe every month or so, and then I’m like, yeah, okay. Yeah.

Megan Porta (13:59.202)
Yeah, not too many updates. So is there anything else people should know about publishers and just what to consider when you are considering which publisher to go with?

Jessica (14:10.455)
Yes. Yeah. I think it’s really good to understand what the publisher can do for you. So one because monetarily it definitely makes more sense to self-publish as far as you know you would have a much bigger piece of the pie. But I think through going through the process there was two things that the publisher did for me that was really great. And one was the

the overall look and feel and quality of the book, because we were able to have professional photographers, a professional food stylist, a professional designer, that if I was to have created that myself, it would have been very expensive. like if I outsourced to all those people. So, you know, because we were getting the best of the best, which is a huge like a massive cost.

so for them to cover all that and it was beautiful. Like we got to like the photo shoot was probably the highlight of the whole thing, to be honest. Cause it was like two weeks, you would have mood boards of all the images, like and this was your book. Like, yeah, you were like, All these people are here to create my book. Like, and they did such a beautiful job and they’re a wonderful team to work with. So and again, being a blogger where you’re siloed, often alone, it was just so collaborative and just a really special thing. so yeah, so there’s a definitely like it’s a high quality book. So I think that’s really great. And we and they did so much effort. So I’ll we’ll we’ll talk we should talk about the cover later because that’s a whole nother thing. But and the and then the second thing is the distribution. So they are able to get it into almost any store and they were able to get it

you know, here in all the major bookstores, but then also like some of the department kind of stores that we have here. like or you have like Target and Kmart and Big W and some of those stores who actually sell a lot of books. and then obviously like online like Booktopia and Amazon and things like that. so I think as a new author like it would be near impossible to get into some of those stores.

So if I would self publish, I would have been relying really heavily on my own audience. Where this way I have my own audience, but then I have the chance for a whole new audience to find you just because they spot your book in a bookstore. yeah, or see your book around the place, which is something I really wanted. So that’s why it sort of, yeah, worked out. A traditional publisher was better for me.

Megan Porta (16:55.599)
Yeah.

Megan Porta (17:02.371)
Yeah, that sounds that sounds great. I was just trying to think of like other reasons why people might consider self publishing. I know it’s like self publishing is so big right now too, but people are still going to publishers and doing it traditionally. So is there is there anything else you can think of like a reason why maybe someone would consider traditional over self publishing?

Jessica (17:15.063)
Mm.

Jessica (17:20.035)
Definitely.

Jessica (17:28.665)
I think the other thing they’re very good at is the book launch. So they have connections at all, you know, major retailers like sorry, not retailers, newspapers, like online media. they got me to go on the morning show, like the TV morning show here. So it’s just like they can open a few doors, which as a new

author I don’t think I would have been able to get access to. And as someone who’s been a blogger and has tried to get, you know, articles published or tried to get national media, like it is hard. So they have, you know, a dedicated team who can just open some of those doors for you that I just I think would be near impossible. It’s a very crowded market. It’s all about who you know. and they have these long lasting relationships that have

Yeah, they’ve, you know, fostered for years. So yeah.

Megan Porta (18:29.453)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it’s they help a ton and reduce a lot of the legwork for sure. Yeah. so you mentioned that you got a recipe tester. What are some other costs that you had to take on yourself?

Jessica (18:36.373)
Yes, yes. That’s true too, yeah.

Jessica (18:47.351)
Yes, all the ingredients for the recipe testing. So some publishers will cover that or you can negotiate for them to cover that, but that was all covered by me. what else? Obviously, yeah, your time is a massive one. Any external recipe tester. then even for the shoot there were things like all the clothes.

So I had to purchase so I I’m in a f you know a few of the photos. So I, you know, had to buy new outfits or a new apron. Have we disconnected? No? It says trying to reconnect, but I can hear you fine. it’s gone now. I’ll just keep going. Okay.

Megan Porta (19:25.565)
I’m here. Are you can you hear me?

Megan Porta (19:31.055)
Okay. Alright. yeah, just carry on.

Jessica (19:38.105)
So yeah, so for the photo shoot is things like yeah, outfits that I needed. Obviously, sometimes there might be baking pans or baking equipment that I needed. but for the most part things were covered. Even like something random, we only have one car. And so for the photo shoot for the two weeks I had to hire a car because I needed to be like across town all day. And you know, obviously my husband had to pick up the kids and whatnot. So

Megan Porta (20:00.669)
right.

Jessica (20:07.507)
yeah, so I had to cover things like that. super random. But yeah, it was actually a lot of the money went to like clothes. Because then I had all these events and nothing to wear too. So I had to, you know, get a few nicer outfits or like for TV and yeah. And I was like, can these be a tax deduction? But my accountant said no.

Megan Porta (20:15.745)
Yeah.

Megan Porta (20:21.015)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Megan Porta (20:28.408)
Yeah. No. No, sorry, that’s on you.

Jessica (20:31.055)
Not unless they were like a work apron, like yeah. So yeah.

Megan Porta (20:35.105)
Yeah, right. so you mentioned photos a few times, like the photo shoot. So are you talking about did they cover did they take pictures of everything in your book? Or are you talking like lifestyle? Okay. So how did that work? Talk to us about that.

Jessica (20:42.274)
Yes.

Jessica (20:46.143)
Everything. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, that was amazing. So we had two chefs and then me. I was a bit of a floater. And they we literally churned out so there’s 80 recipes in the cookbook. So around we did around 10 a day. and yeah, and yeah, yeah, it was big.

Megan Porta (21:05.922)
Wow.

Megan Porta (21:09.515)
A lot.

Jessica (21:11.085)
And so we had, yeah, the two chefs and they would be making it and then they would bring it out. And then me and the food or the food stylist Lee, she would kind of style and I would sort of be there too. Like there’s a few photos in the book where I’d be like, you know, holding a spoon or doing a final drizzle or sifting over some sugar. So I was in a quite a few of the photos or my, you know, torso is or something like that. So yeah, and then we’d take it over to the table and then we had this amazing

Photographer Mark and he would do his thing with the big camera and whatnot. yeah, and then the image would come up straight away on his huge fancy computer, and we got to say like yay or nay, and they were very like perfectionists, so it was like we had to get everything perfect. And of course we had a few dramas where like some things didn’t work, which was very stressful, like even

What did we have? we ran out of an ingredient. And so I’m running around trying to find, you know, a last minute ingredient because we’ve got a cake sitting under the hot lights. And there was one recipe, I can’t remember which one it was, that it just wasn’t working. And I went home and like retested it, but then we were like, I just didn’t want it in the book because it was being a bit weird. So we took it out of the book last minute, and then I had to quickly develop.

Megan Porta (22:06.42)
yeah.

Megan Porta (22:25.262)
Yeah.

Jessica (22:29.239)
an extra recipe. So I was there trying to develop a recipe and then we put that in. yeah, and the other thing too that was stressful was we were in a beautiful kitchen that’s like set up like a photography studio that had a kitchen. But every oven is different. And so they had multiple ovens and some of them, you know, you had their quirks as ovens too and they had a bit of a hot spot or one ran a bit hot and one ran a bit cold and

Megan Porta (22:33.229)
my gosh.

Jessica (22:58.915)
So even there was a few things like that. So we even I was like, I think there was a few cookies or something. And I was like, I’m gonna bake these at home. So then I would go home and wake up at 5 a.m. and be baking all these cookies because I wanted them to be like just right. And then I’d slept them all into the studio. So it was a bit it was crazy, but I actually just like loved every minute. I was just like in the zone having the greatest time. And then when you get the book and you see

Megan Porta (23:10.779)
my gosh.

Jessica (23:28.899)
like the gorgeous photos. Like I was just so happy with how they all turned out. they did a beautiful job. And then on one of the days we had my kids come in. So my kids are well they were five and two at the time. So they’re six and three now and they came in and they’re in a couple of the photos in the book as well. So that was really fun. Yeah. Yeah it was really cool. It was really cool.

Megan Porta (23:34.003)
Megan Porta (23:48.24)
I love it. That’s super fun for them. capture this. Yeah. That sounds like such a cool experience. And all the little hiccups you mentioned, of course those are a bound to happen, right? Like when you have that many recipes to photograph in such a short time, of course you’re gonna have issues and you have to just go with the flow and make it work. Yeah.

Jessica (23:58.563)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. And like there was a few, like I think Ganache, you know, seized or we got the wrong peanut butter. Like it’s you know, and as a blogger, like you know these things. Like you sit down to do your own photo shoots and this happens, but it felt like the stakes were very high, like, but luckily everyone managed.

Megan Porta (24:19.94)
Yeah.

Jessica (24:27.999)
to keep like a cool calm sort of attitude, like yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so.

Megan Porta (24:30.241)
Yeah, they’re probably used to it too. They’re used to things not going absolutely smoothly. So I’m curious about your recipe testers. how did that go? How did you initiate that process? Was it smooth?

Jessica (24:39.49)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So when I got the book deal, they kind of it’s really funny because they’re quite, I don’t know if every publisher is, but my publisher was quite hands-off where we sort of agreed on the book, we agreed on the amount of recipes, what they were sort of going to be about. I think I did up a recipe list, so like the chapters and they had to agree on all of that. And then it was like, cool, I’ll see you in four months. And I was like, okay.

So I just gotta do this. And it just felt very like I felt quite paralyzed, like because I was like, this is such a huge project. Like, where do I start? my brain kind of was just spinning around. And then I thought, you know, the pressure of having a book in writing that can’t be changed just really weighed on me. And I was really worried about doing something wrong. And it’s not just that.

like if the recipe wouldn’t work, but it’s even just like, you know, if you write it down wrong, yeah, if you miss a measurement, like you like, you know, you it’s gotta be perfect, like beyond perfect. So I actually went to one of my friends, Amelia Jackson. She’s a an amazing author, cookbook author here in Australia. I said to her, I don’t know

where to start. I think I want someone to check these because I feel like I needed a, you know, a sense check. And I did think about getting some readers to help because I know I would have some readers who would have loved to help. But then I was thinking if I get multiple voices in multiple kitchens, it’s just going to make the whole process really messy. And I was quite pressed for time. And she said, you need Janine.

Jessica (26:31.001)
I said, who’s Janine? And she said, Janine’s my recipe tester. So she gave me this lady’s number and I went out and had coffee with her. And turns out she was on MasterChef many years ago and she’s this amazing home baker. Yeah, she and she’s this all around wonderful human being. And she said, I’d love to help you. And I was like, it’s like you have no idea how wonderful that is. And yeah, so she just like charged an hourly rate and just

Megan Porta (26:43.587)
Megan Porta (26:50.775)
Aw.

Jessica (26:59.481)
She could kind of, she was, would could kind of just work whenever I needed her. And so, you know, at the end of the week, I’d just be like, here’s the three or four recipes that I worked on. And I would just send them over to her in a Google Doc. And then she would make them over a few days and just write down all the notes. And it was so good because she would check everything. So she would check like the oven temperature, if the bake time was the same, obviously the end result.

But even, you know, going through and making sure like every ingredient was measured correctly, that there was no typos in the instructions, that she knew exactly what I meant. And because she was a seasoned baker, she, you know, she got it. There was and and she also like could foresee things like say, you know, you need to explain this better, or you need to add this step in here.

Or mine took a lot longer to bake, and so then it would come back to me and I’d put it back in my recipe testing pile. Or she’d say it’s perfect, and then we’d go, Great, and we’d put it in the done pile. So it was very collaborative with her, which was great because I helped me not just feel like I was floating around on my own. Sometimes you feel like a turtle on its back or something, just like helpless.

And so that was great, but it was it was it was a lot of work and it was hard to I don’t know if you’re the same, but as a blogger, like you do a lot of the recipe testing yourself and then you can just publish it. But like I was very keen on having things done and I would be like, Great, this recipe is exact, you know, I’ve tested it four times, it’s just how I want it. I send it to Janine, I’d be like, it’s done. And then she’d come back and she’d go, This didn’t work, and I’d be like,

no, like the fact that it has to come, yeah, all the way back and come in my like to do pile again. It was it was really hard, but it was it was worth it so that, you know, I can have confidence that all the recipes, you know, should work for majority of people.

Megan Porta (28:46.601)
that’s devastating.

Megan Porta (28:59.043)
Yeah.

Absolutely. So for anyone listening, find a Janine. Find someone that you can rely on and trust and who’s gonna give you honest feedback.

Jessica (29:05.421)
Yes, yes, yes. Well, that’s the thing too about finding people who are willing to help you. And that’s the thing I’ve noticed on this journey is I’ve met some really lovely people like Amelia, like Janine, who yeah, are a little bit further along the journey than you that can say this is what I did, this is what worked, this is what didn’t. And if anyone has any questions, like please feel free to.

reach out to me. I love to help people because so many people have helped me and honestly it has made such a big difference. Even yeah, way back in the blogging days, like some of the bigger bloggers I would reach out and they would, you know, tell me what camera they were using or, you know, like all that stuff when you’re trying to learn everything. and it’s it’s just so wonderful. Like the yeah, the foodie community is amazing.

Megan Porta (29:52.621)
Yeah.

Megan Porta (29:58.766)
Yes, definitely. We need to lean on each other. how did the editing process go for you?

Jessica (30:01.687)
Yes.

Jessica (30:05.729)
Yeah, like editing the book. Yes. Yes, that was actually a lot harder than I anticipated, I think, because once you did the recipe testing and then you did the photo shoot, you kind of went like, you know, it’s done. And then a few weeks later they come back and they knock and they go, Here’s the 250 pages. Can you check it, please? And that that’s the other thing actually about going through a traditional publisher is they will pay for proper editors. So I think my book.

Megan Porta (30:07.352)
Yeah.

Megan Porta (30:19.629)
Yeah.

Jessica (30:35.457)
went through two or three professional editors at one point or another along the journey. So they even change who they do because you know different eyes see different issues. so that’s great, but I felt a great responsibility to go through it line by line, page by page myself. So I even remember last year at Christmas time, I had they give you the first pages, they call it first pages, second pages, third pages. So it’s basically like

Megan Porta (30:44.921)
Right? That’s great.

Jessica (31:03.201)
And then you can’t change it after that. And I think in December, I think I got the second pages. No, I think I had one more chance to change anything. But I just remember I think it was like Christmas Eve and I just printed it out because I’m not someone who can really do it on a computer. So I printed all the pages out and I was just like there going through line by line, you know, late at night, trying to just be like, I do not want any mistakes in this book.

Megan Porta (31:24.192)
Wow.

Jessica (31:29.543)
and also it just any last minute changes or anything you just think, why did I say that? and yeah, so it was it was long. I think some people probably would just go like, it’s good, you know, and would rely on the editors. But if you’re someone who, you know, wants to have a real hands-on approach, the editing is a lot. And then yeah, and then we got it a third time before it went to print.

And that was pretty scary because that was like once you pressed like yeah. Once you press send and we’re like, yeah, that’s all my changes. And the other thing too with the first, second and third changes is you often sent back changes so you could do them online or actually physically like go to the post, put all the hundreds of pages in the post with red pen. So then it was also checking that then I had the old one that I had sent.

Megan Porta (32:04.919)
Yeah, it’s d done, it’s final.

Megan Porta (32:20.327)
Jessica (32:28.591)
‘Cause I then I sent them a copy and then I had the new one and then I went through line to make sure every change. Do you know what I mean? So it’s like it’s a bit of a nightmare, to be honest. yeah. Yes. Yes. It was really nice to send it off to print. It was scary, but it was really nice. So it’s yes, and it’s a very involved project. And I think for me.

Megan Porta (32:34.341)
my gosh. Wow. Yeah. That’s a lot. Yeah, that is a lot. That just adds to the relief when it’s finished and printed. That makes it so much sweeter.

Megan Porta (32:53.855)
Absolutely.

Jessica (32:58.299)
I don’t work full time. I only, you know, have part time hours ’cause I have my kids and things. And the book was very like all consuming for me. But I think yeah, so I think that’s one thing to think of. I don’t know how other maybe other people would love the diversity in their day, but for me, like once I signed up to this project, I thought I would be able to do my normal day job as well, you know, still blogging and posting, but I couldn’t.

I yeah, I pretty much dropped the ball. I don’t think I posted a new recipe on the blog for could have been six or seven months. Like during this process. Yes.

Megan Porta (33:35.385)
Yeah, I mean you have to preserve your sanity, right? You can’t you just can’t keep up with everything, especially with the way blogging is now. Just not expecting to be able to do that. Yeah. Exactly.

Jessica (33:42.478)
Yeah.

So many changes. Yes. And such high expectations for each blog post, isn’t there? So yeah, that’s something to consider as well if you can yeah, if you can actually do that. If you have the ability to Yeah. And to pause basically what else you’re working on potentially for a few months. Yeah.

Megan Porta (33:52.217)
Yep.

Megan Porta (33:58.894)
Right beforehand. Yeah.

Megan Porta (34:07.479)
Absolutely. Talk about the cover. You talked about this a little bit earlier. Why do you think it’s so important?

Jessica (34:11.265)
yes. Yes. So this was in this was a big learning curve for me. So the cover apparently is so important. So which makes sense. I guess it’s almost like you know when you’re doing a YouTube video and they talk about the thumbnail. So we had a really hard time choosing the cover for the book. we didn’t we originally were going to try and do like

quite a macro food shot and we just didn’t feel like we tried a number of iterations but we just didn’t feel like we got the shot at the shoot. And they told me all about sort of it’s like the science of the cover and it’s basically that it has to be, you know, very eye catching obviously. You want it to kind of jump off the shelf, but then you also have to have a cover that looks really good as a thumbnail because a lot of people buy online. So it was like, does it look

you know, does it stand out on the shelf? Can people still read it? Does it stand out as a thumbnail? so we ended up going through a number of iterations and then they basically just said I didn’t like a lot of them and they said we didn’t like a lot of them either. So we ended up doing a separate cover shoot. So yeah, and again this is something like the publisher covered this cost, but you know, as

Megan Porta (35:23.599)
interesting.

Jessica (35:35.181)
someone who was wasn’t traditionally publishing, that would have been an additional cost. So we hired another studio, we got our photographer back, we got another stylist. Janine came as the chef and we chose three recipes I think we made. And yeah, so the stylist had three different like not more than three, number of different outfits for me. And we decided we wanted my body in it.

So ’cause that was the other thing is we found because that we were using food, we found the covers seemed very generic and there wasn’t like a human element to it. So we wanted like a hand in there or something so that it didn’t just look like a content farm. Cause I don’t know, do you know what I mean? Like you see a lot of books and it’s just like a hundred cakes and it’s just like written by nobody or yeah.

Megan Porta (36:22.318)
Yeah.

Yep. Who wrote this? Yeah. Exactly.

Jessica (36:29.543)
so we really wanted to make sure people knew, like, no, this is someone’s book, a person’s book, who wrote this? So in the end, we ended up having like most of my body in the cover. But we ended up shooting it. It was on a like a 45 degree day. I don’t know, do you know what that is in in Yeah, it’s like it’s like boiling. And the studio didn’t have very good aircon, I think it was like

Megan Porta (36:41.314)
yeah, I love that.

Megan Porta (36:48.878)
that’s like hot, right? Yeah, that’s very hot.

Jessica (36:58.233)
half broken so we were like dripping with sweat trying to hold these cakes and do this. so yeah so we ended up doing like hundreds and hundreds of photos and then it went back and they did numerous like iterations of the cover changing you know the font and the colours and the like everything and honestly it was like the biggest drama and like every time it would come back I’d be like, I don’t like that one and then it was like back to the drawing board.

Megan Porta (37:03.107)
gosh.

Megan Porta (37:16.793)
Yeah.

Megan Porta (37:26.868)
gosh.

Jessica (37:28.173)
So it took us a long time and in the end they ended up choosing so the cover that we chose was actually like my second favorite, not my top favourite. And I actually love it now, so it’s okay. But they didn’t go with the one that I wanted because it was very similar colours to essentially a competitor’s book. so it’s even things like that, and they also knew that there was another

Megan Porta (37:40.536)
Okay.

Megan Porta (37:52.249)
Okay.

Jessica (37:56.803)
the competitor was like going to write another book soon. So there would be another one like competing. So there was a few things like that as well that they know they have a know, they’re in the know of what’s coming. And so therefore they know what white where your book’s going to fit. And then there’s also stuff on how big your book is. So like the bigger it is, the more space it takes up on the shelf is seen as better essentially. But

Jessica (38:24.571)
Obviously it costs more and then there’s like paperback versus hardback and then the paper and yeah, so there’s all these like considerations, but honestly like the sales team actually drives a lot of that. So and when you go with a traditional publisher, that is actually out of your control. So my publisher was really great where they were very collaborative and I definitely, you know, said my opinions on things.

but in your contract you sign, you literally say, like they get the final say. So you could end up with a cover that you hate basically.

Megan Porta (39:02.353)
gosh, that would be terrible. But it I’m really glad you like the cover and that it even though it wasn’t your first choice, that you still like how it turned out. Because

Jessica (39:06.081)
Yes, me too. Yes. I do. And you know, now I’ve seen it on a shelf in bookstores and they were right. They were right with how they chose it and how they did the font and everything. It really stands out. So there is an element of trust that they do know what they’re talking about and they do have experience in this. And you have to kind of put your vanity aside as to like whether you’re like, but that’s just what I want. And it’s like, well

Megan Porta (39:16.865)
Absolutely.

Jessica (39:34.841)
You know, at the in the end you want your book to sell, so you kind of have to just go like, Okay.

Megan Porta (39:41.411)
Yeah, I trust you putting my book in your hands. Yeah. So how did the launch go and how’s everything gone since as far as promoting, et cetera?

Jessica (39:43.307)
Yes, I trust you. There has to be an element of trust, definitely.

Jessica (39:52.629)
Yeah, the launch is really fun. So it’s really great that I got to do a book where we weren’t in COVID or anything. So for mine we did a few things where I got to go, like I mentioned before, I got to go on TV and do a little baking demo on our morning show, which was really exciting. I did love that. and then we had a launch evening, so at a local bookstore.

it was a free event, but I baked heaps of things for everyone to have and then I was there was like a Q&A and then people could bring their books and get them signed and I got to meet lots of readers so I did two of those as well here in Melbourne and honestly I was buzzing after those events because I thought no one would come. Like we only moved to Melbourne I think three or four years ago, four years ago, and

And we don’t have any family here. So like I didn’t have that many I know other people, you know, they could just, you know, get thirty people to rock up that they’re related to, you know. Like so yeah, I wasn’t really sure, but we were overwhelmed by how many people turned up and so many beautiful readers and as you know, doing stuff online to bring it offline, like it honestly just

blew me away and to have people be like, I’ve been following you for years. I make your recipes all the time. I love when I get messages like that, but meeting someone in person, it was a really beautiful, like felt like a full circle kind of moment for me. yeah, and it was really, really special.

Megan Porta (41:35.885)
Yeah, there’s nothing that you can you cannot replicate that in any other way online. It just is not possible. So and this is yeah, it’s not. And I love that this sort of project brings people together in person and that you’ve been able to experience that. And that alone probably is worth everything.

Jessica (41:40.331)
No, I agree. It’s not the same. It really is. And you get new connections, you get to meet new people. and yeah, it’s a really beautiful thing. And I think too coming off the back of COVID where we all felt very alone and then I like I said, I had two kids, so I feel like I was just I’ve had years of being, you know, home and being alone. Like I mean, I’m not alone, I have my family and stuff, but you know what I mean? Like just

Megan Porta (42:19.299)
Yeah. It’s lonely. Yeah, it was lonely.

Jessica (42:22.751)
It and blogging can be a bit lonely and then it was just really beautiful and then for me to see that people would bother taking time out of their day and come and celebrate with me, like people I’ve never met, like it was just very kind. I felt very overwhelmed by people’s kindness. And yeah, and then they would go out of their way and buy my book. it’s just yeah, it’s beautiful.

Megan Porta (42:46.615)
I love that. So as far as promotions go, I know that traditional publishers typically do a little bit of promoting for you. I assume they did some for you as well. And then have you had to do some yourself?

Jessica (42:55.179)
Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. So yeah, it’s definitely a combination. So yeah, they were able to tee up a few of these things and I was able to say what kind of events I would like. but I think that I’m still sort of in the moment where we’re still trying to promote it. So I’ve got even in a couple of weeks I’m I have another baking demo and book signing at our like a big

food market that we have here in Melbourne. And they got, you know, mentions in a lot of the newspapers and magazines and things like that, which is really cool. But yeah, I think it’s just also just networking. I’ve met a few other amazing authors who were going to collaborate and do some videos together. I’ve just because I’ve just tried to launch a YouTube channel going long form. Woo-hoo.

Megan Porta (43:52.183)
Nice, yes.

Jessica (43:53.871)
Trying something new. Yeah, so I’m trying to tee up a few of those things myself and do a few collaborations, which is really exciting as well. But yeah, we’ll see. I don’t exactly know what the future holds. And I’m still waiting on some international dates for the book to be released as well. But yeah, it’s exciting, exciting times. And obviously, like you know, the world is like the blogging world is just wild at the moment. I feel like I

Megan Porta (43:55.65)
Absolutely.

Megan Porta (44:16.611)
Such an exciting project.

Jessica (44:23.703)
you know, there’s AI and all the social media platform changes and I just I feel like I’m just holding on like a roller coaster ride. Do you feel the same way?

Megan Porta (44:33.571)
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think if you don’t feel that way now, I don’t know. Maybe you don’t maybe you’re not in touch with what’s going on. But I feel like you have to, if you’re human and you’re a blogger, you’ve gotta feel that just yeah, like you’ve gotta hold on tight. It is turbulent. Yes. So this is kind of I feel like a cookbook project like this is valuable beyond what we know as bloggers, but it’s also a good distraction, right? Like something to kind of take your mind off of.

Jessica (44:38.799)
Something wrong with you.

Jessica (44:47.757)
Yes. It’s turbulent. Yes. Yes.

Megan Porta (45:03.437)
All of the craziness happening?

Jessica (45:05.037)
Yes. And it’s a really nice way to kind of get off the hamster wheel of just being like, I have to post, post, post, post, post, and just be like, I’m actually I am still working, but I’m doing this entire different project. I’m meeting these different people. Still like similar skill sets, but you learn a lot of new things along the way. yeah, I think it’s great. I think if anyone has an opportunity that comes along, I think it’s definitely worth considering because it’s a lot of fun.

It’s really exciting and obviously, yeah, you I mean you get to say you’re an author, that’s pretty cool. Yes.

Megan Porta (45:38.679)
I know. That is pretty cool. I think when it comes down to it, it’s just a really good way to diversify right now. Diversify revenue potentially, but also just your creativity and the things that you’re creating in your business. So something to consider.

Jessica (45:46.637)
Yes. Yes.

Jessica (45:54.019)
Definitely, definitely, and you don’t know what kind of doors will open up from that as well. So it has the potential to yeah, just and yeah, it does feel like it makes your business a bit more well-rounded. which is exciting. And yeah, I don’t know what’s going to come next, but I hope, yeah, there might be some more opportunities. There might be a second book down the road. So

Yeah, it it makes it it makes the whole blogging world seem a little bit more exciting again. Like you know how it can kind of ebb and flow and you’re like, yeah, it’s been really refreshing and exciting, I think. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Megan Porta (46:27.406)
Yeah.

Megan Porta (46:32.54)
I’m so happy for you. Congratulations again. And before we say goodbye, Jessica, is there anything that you just really wanted to mention that we did not mention yet?

Jessica (46:42.687)
I don’t think so. I think we covered everything pretty well. I think I just yeah, would encourage people to reach out and not be afraid to ask people who are a little bit further along the journey. I know I already said that, but even I’ve been to a few events recently and met some bloggers and there’s a lot of people who have started on social media but then they don’t have a website, so then they’re like, What? What is this, you know, thing about a website? All there’s people, you know, that haven’t done a cookbook.

Megan Porta (46:46.777)
Great.

Jessica (47:11.907)
And there’s just so many people I think that are willing to share. And you also just be open to going to events and meeting people, getting off your computer and finding like-minded people. Because even, you know, when I reached out to Amelia and she told me about Janine, like that, you know, Janine changed the whole process for me and I wouldn’t have, you know, found that out, I don’t think, any other way. So yeah, just yeah, get out, get out and meet people.

Megan Porta (47:30.297)
Yeah.

Megan Porta (47:41.269)
Absolutely. Good message. So tell everyone the name of the book and then remind us what your website’s called and give us your social media handles too.

Jessica (47:41.604)
And ask questions. Yes.

Jessica (47:49.529)
Yes. Yes. So the book is called Something Sweet. And you can find me on my blog sweetestmenu.com and Sweetest Menu across Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, etc. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do have a giant cookie recipe. I don’t know why I was talking about it. Yeah. I love a good giant cookie. Yeah.

Megan Porta (48:05.071)
Awesome. And go look. I’m gonna go look for that giant cookie from four years ago. I know. You do? Okay. There’s something there. I know. I love them too. Well, thank you, Jessica, for your time. We so appreciate all of this information. This was really fun conversation, just talking through the whole process. So we appreciate you. Yes.

Jessica (48:19.575)
Yeah.

Jessica (48:26.767)
Course, thank you for having me.

Megan Porta (48:29.782)
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much, food bloggers, for showing up and listening to us. And we’ll see you next time.